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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian sex (Read 381 times)
Jeff
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #40 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 8:14am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 9:39pm:
Jeff's insistence is the typical progressive/libertarian/leftist/individualist/fruedian bullshittery (I've heard all make this case, and I'm counting Jeff as a progressive) that Humans are all learning and no instinct. Blank slates.

That's you own Opposition BS. Humans are complex combinations of nature and nurture, and free will.
  

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kaz
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #41 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:21am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 8:12am:
People you are raised with seem boringly familiar, while someone you don't know as well looks exotic and exciting. The people raised in Kibbutzim do know who their relations are.

It's not really important. Adults can make decisions for themselves about incest, but they should know the potential dangers for any children they might choose to have.


It's been through history across cultures that people marry outside their village, outside their tribe, outside their group.  Obviously genes play a huge role in that.  The ones that don't under perform their peers and don't survive.  Survival of the fittest
  

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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #42 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:33am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:21am:
It's been through history across cultures that people marry outside their village, outside their tribe, outside their group.
Yes, it's why Polynesians periodically visited other islands and encouraged all the nubile young women to get pregnant by young men from the island they were visiting, while they got busy impregnating all the nubile young girls on the island they were visiting.

I still think it's learned behavior, that people noticed that they started having defective babies if they interbred too much, and they might have even noticed it in the herds of animals they kept.

I could very well be wrong about this. It might be a mere animal instinct, created by millions of years of evolution... Are there other animals that exhibit "incest taboos"?

Edit: To a point, there are benefits to inbreeding, where good characteristics are reinforced by the practice... Stock breeders do it purposely, being willing to accept a few defectives from time to time in order to improve the breed.

I think something like that was part of Hitler's plan to create a "master race".
  

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kaz
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #43 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:40am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Yes, it's why Polynesians periodically visited other islands and encouraged all the nubile young women to get pregnant by young men from the island they were visiting, while they got busy impregnating all the nubile young girls on the island they were visiting.

I still think it's learned behavior, that people noticed that they started having defective babies if they interbred too much, and they might have even noticed it in the herds of animals they kept.

I could very well be wrong about this. It might be a mere animal instinct, created by millions of years of evolution... Are there other animals that exhibit "incest taboos"?

Edit: To a point, there are benefits to inbreeding, where good characteristics are reinforced by the practice... Stock breeders do it purposely, being willing to accept a few defectives from time to time in order to improve the breed.

I think something like that was part of Hitler's plan to create a "master race".


Science disagrees with you, vehemently.  Skinner could never prove your idiotic blank sheet theory.  In fact study after study shows genes are far more important and predictive than experience.  It's uncanny how similar the lives of identical twins separated at birth end up.

I do like your argument though that people who thought throwing people into volcanoes made the crops grow were intense and dispassionate studiers of human nature and that incest lead to birth defects
  

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ahhell
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #44 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:44am
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Best evidence suggest that most aspects of human behavior are about 60-70% genetics and 30-40% environment.  Culture tends to be what bits of our genetic tendencies we emphasize over others. 

Any rate, nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. 
  
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kaz
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #45 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:49am
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ahhell wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:44am:
Best evidence suggest that most aspects of human behavior are about 60-70% genetics and 30-40% environment.  Culture tends to be what bits of our genetic tendencies we emphasize over others. 

Any rate, nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. 


Good point, but that is a fallacy.  That nature versus nurture as a whole is a false dichotomy doesn't mean that it isn't one or the other in every case. All through history, cultures have disdained incest.  As I just pointed out, with their endless superstitions on so many topics, it's hard to believe that they weren't driven primarily by genes.

Also, I never said it was an absolute choice as you just portrayed it.  In fact I said genes were more important.  I never said it was the only factor.  However, in this case, looking at history does support that genes were the strong, primary factor given the crazy and shitty things that mankind did across the globe and yet that incest is so globally taboo



  

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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #46 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:18am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:40am:
Science disagrees with you, vehemently.
People are a complex mixture of nature, nurture, and learning. (Edit: the mixture varies depending on the individual.)

Your claim that the incest taboo is all "nature" is likely to be seen as wrong by honest scientists.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #47 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:21am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:40am:
I do like your argument though that people who thought throwing people into volcanoes made the crops grow were intense and dispassionate studiers of human nature and that incest lead to birth defects
I imagine that the Polynesians were keen observers of the natural world, of which they were a part. That they were pre-scientific and superstitious has no bearing on that at all.

It doesn't take science to observe what happens, even if you don't know why.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #48 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:25am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:49am:
All through history, cultures have disdained incest. 
Except when the "elites" insisted on it.

And it didn't just cause problems in Egypt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_in_European_royalty

The Tsar's of Russia were also in the European "royalty" family...

And, what about this?

https://sites.psu.edu/nativewriters/2014/04/15/keeping-it-in-the-family-native-p...
  

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kaz
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Re: Libertarian sex
Reply #49 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:37am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:25am:
Except when the "elites" insisted on it.

And it didn't just cause problems in Egypt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_in_European_royalty

The Tsar's of Russia were also in the European "royalty" family...

And, what about this?

https://sites.psu.edu/nativewriters/2014/04/15/keeping-it-in-the-family-native-p...


That nobility didn't follow what the people did doesn't logically prove anything.  Those cultures were anti-incest.  That you can show small sets of people who thought they were Gods or at least endowed by them who violated that proves nothing
  

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