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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) All roads lead to Rome (Read 301 times)
Jeff
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #10 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 7:45am
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yamcha wrote on Nov 17th, 2019 at 7:35pm:
It seems all forms of government, including Libertarianism, eventually will degrade or evolve to big government or even tyranny.


"Libertarianism" is not a form of government.

The founders mentioned "constant vigilance".

Ben Franklin, asked what form of government the Convention had delivered answered "A Republic, if you can keep it."

The destruction of our form of government came almost at a single stroke, when the New Deal Court interpreted the commerce and general welfare clauses as grants of unlimited power, and it was destroyed without the approval of the People. Cry
  

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The Opposition
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #11 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:46am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 17th, 2019 at 8:02pm:
Don't worry about acceptance from other libertarians.


That's easy for you to say when you have it. If everyone thinks I'm a Nazi, then I'm a Nazi.

You know, I get more flak for being racist than Yamcha does, because Yamcha is a dominant dog.

I've tried saying A. I've tried saying not-A. I get laughed at and called a totalitarian for either. It doesn't matter to you what someone's views are. Don was a communist and he was respected as more highly libertarian than me by almost everyone.

Don said people shouldn't be allowed to do things all the time. So does every Libertarian here (but I never have to my recollection). In fact I've never been told I should be allowed to do something except commit suicide.

Does Libertarian just mean bully? It's pretty obvious that only ridiculing and shouting down others gets the kind of respect I want - the kind of respect Jeff has. He has never lost an argument.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #12 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 11:52am
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yamcha wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 6:05am:
Fukk.  You hire the spics to scrub the toilet and now they report you for what you do in your garage?
I know, right?

Only in California.

In some parts of Arizona, soccer moms open carry.  Nobody bats an eye.

But I work on my firearm inside my own home and I'm reported to the authorities.

The Opposition wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:46am:
Does Libertarian just mean bully? It's pretty obvious that only ridiculing and shouting down others gets the kind of respect I want - the kind of respect Jeff has.

Libertarian does NOT mean bully.     Libertarian means self-ownership, limited government, and natural rights (life, liberty, property).

The Opposition wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:46am:
[Jeff] has never lost an argument.

He has lost plenty - he just doesn't realize it.   Smiley
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #13 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 2:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:46am:
Does Libertarian just mean bully?
Are you trying to redefine it as that?
  

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Jeff
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #14 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 11:52am:
He has lost plenty - he just doesn't realize it.   Smiley
You're free to think I'm delusional Chief. Smiley
  

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The Opposition
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #15 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:03pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 11:52am:
But I work on my firearm inside my own home and I'm reported to the authorities.


If you know a purely voluntary organisation can become so horribly tyrannical, why are you so insistent that voluntarism will make the world better?

It seems to me that power, however legitimately it is had, still corrupts. People engage in doxxing because they have the power to get others fired, whether that power is defined as aggression or not.

SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 11:52am:
Libertarian does NOT mean bully.     Libertarian means self-ownership, limited government, and natural rights (life, liberty, property).


It just seems to work out that way. Libertarians seem to delight in the power to tell others no. They certainly delight in telling me no; I've never been told yes by the real heavy-hitters.

SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 11:52am:
He has lost plenty - he just doesn't realize it.   Smiley


Neither do I. His definitional trump cards simply do not lose, and he wins one side of an argument just as easily as the other.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #16 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
It just seems to work out that way. Libertarians seem to delight in the power to tell others no. They certainly delight in telling me no; I've never been told yes by the real heavy-hitters.

Jeff doesn't pretend to be libertarian.   He has stated many times in this forum that he is a "classic liberal".

This admission is honorable, in my opinion.

A classic liberal may hold some libertarian ideals.  - yes. 

But a classic liberal is not necessarily libertarian.

A classic liberal believes that government should have the power/authority to take wealth by force.

Obviously, libertarians do not.

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation."  - LP
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #17 - Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:31pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
A classic liberal believes that government should have the power/authority to take wealth by force.

Obviously, libertarians do not.


A tiger is wealth.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/wealth?s=t

Definition 3.

Look, I'm not arguing this. I swear I'm not.

But every Libertarian supports reasonable reasonable restrictions on property.

It's just that anything I want seems to mysteriously find its way into those exact cracks.

That's where I'm getting bully.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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kaz
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #18 - Nov 19th, 2019 at 6:51am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 18th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
Jeff doesn't pretend to be libertarian.   He has stated many times in this forum that he is a "classic liberal".

This admission is honorable, in my opinion.

A classic liberal may hold some libertarian ideals.  - yes. 

But a classic liberal is not necessarily libertarian.

A classic liberal believes that government should have the power/authority to take wealth by force.

Obviously, libertarians do not.

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation."  - LP


I'm assuming you mean income taxes again and you don't know what the hell you're talking about since tariffs and sales taxes and indirect taxes are still taxes. 

But just to point out, the founding fathers, who were the actual classic liberals, said NO income taxes.  It wasn't them who implemented it a hundred and fifty years later.  Other than the brief income tax the tyrant Lincoln implemented that the courts rightly struck down.  It's really hard to have a proper war where you conquer your own citizens without taxing income
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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SkyChief
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Re: All roads lead to Rome
Reply #19 - Nov 19th, 2019 at 7:15am
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kaz wrote on Nov 19th, 2019 at 6:51am:
I'm assuming you mean income taxes again and you don't know what the hell you're talking about since tariffs and sales taxes and indirect taxes are still taxes. 

Indirect taxes can be avoided.   If you don't want to pay the Federal Gasoline Tax, drive a Tesla.  Or ride a bike.

Direct taxes cannot be avoided.  If you own property (in most states), you must pay a tax.   If you have a job and get paid with dollars, you must pay a tax.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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