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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended? (Read 610 times)
kaz
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #50 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:32pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:27pm:
Ok, so Obama submitted Garland, why wasn't there a vote in the Senate?  Because McConnel didn't want Obama to get another nominee on the SCOTUS. 

The president could have submitted someone else, but the Senate wouldn't have voted on them either for the same reason they didn't vote on Garland. 

I want to make the vote happen in a timely manner to ensure every president gets 2 picks per term.  If the Senate pulls a Garland that would not happen.  Granted, I don't see a way to prevent the Senate voting down 5 nominees in a row. 




The last point in your post is the point.  A vote on Garland wouldn't have changed the outcome and not having a vote didn't prevent Obama from making a different pick.  That is my point, the outcome is the same.

I'd love to hear an idea that would have allowed Republicans to get conservatives on the bench with all the nominations they made, but requiring a vote wouldn't have accomplished that.

With Garland, the Democrats just nominated leftists anyway.  They didn't nominate anyone the Republicans would confirm who was remotely moderate much less conservative. 

The one thing I'm glad of is that Republicans aren't confirming leftists anymore just like Democrats don't confirm conservatives.  The difference is that Democrats didn't confirm conservatives for decades and not confirming leftists is new for Republicans
  

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The Opposition
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #51 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:34pm
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I can see A getting objections if a lot of this happens:

Oh look, another Scalia mysteriously died. Oh well. Wow, my lovely new unconstitutional socialist programme actually held up in court! Who woulda thought?

While I understand you can't really use potential foul play as a reason to distrust a perfectly good plan, you could have a pool of emergency backup justices (selected the same way as the active ones) and pick one at random.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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ahhell
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #52 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 3:06pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:32pm:
The last point in your post is the point.  A vote on Garland wouldn't have changed the outcome and not having a vote didn't prevent Obama from making a different pick.  That is my point, the outcome is the same.
Actually, it might have changed the outcome.   They could have rejected him or not we don't actually know how the vote would have gone.  If McConnel was sure, he'd have had the vote.  If they did, Obama could have nominated another candidate and depending on the limits, maybe 2 or 3 more.  The GOP would then have to explain why they rejected a bunch of candidates that were actually qualified.  Do you have an idea that would actually force the vacancy to be filled with in a year? 
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I'd love to hear an idea that would have allowed Republicans to get conservatives on the bench with all the nominations they made, but requiring a vote wouldn't have accomplished that.
Not the problem I'm trying to address here.  All I'm trying to do is reduce the significance of each individual nomination. 

That might actually make it easier to get conservatives approved but that would be a side effect not the goal.  If individual appointments weren't seen as the most important thing in politics, then fewer people would care that one justice in particular was very conservative or very liberal. 


  
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #53 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 5:50pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 3:06pm:
The GOP would then have to explain why they rejected a bunch of candidates that were actually qualified.
If their records show them to be ideologues, they aren't qualified to be justices. We have plenty of ideologues in the lower courts, and have had too many on the Supreme Court over the years. Let's not allow any more, ever.  Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #54 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 5:54pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 3:06pm:
If individual appointments weren't seen as the most important thing in politics, then fewer people would care that one justice in particular was very conservative or very liberal. 
It's the fact that the government is worth capturing that creates these problems.

The federal government claims unlimited powers to tax and legislate. They justify it by pointing to all the precedents supporting the New Deal Court's decision that Congress possesses general powers.

Unlimited government power is attractive to all sorts of nasty people. History proves it.
  

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kaz
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #55 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:39pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 3:06pm:
The GOP would then have to explain why they rejected a bunch of candidates that were actually qualified


Agreed.  It's not like the Democrats who wouldn't be asked by the media other than they are "extremists" and that's explanation enough.

I know you're fixated on Garland, but as I pointed out, the Republicans were deprived of far more picks than Democrats were and you don't seem to care about that.  Why not?  Do you know the source of the term being "Borked?"
Garland was a pimple on the problem.  Republicans played the game and picked judges the Democrats would approve.  Democrats didn't, they nominated nothing but leftist extremists and took the fight to the media, who carry their water.  I'd like a solution that covers both of those, not just Garland
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #56 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:44pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 3:06pm:
Not the problem I'm trying to address here.  All I'm trying to do is reduce the significance of each individual nomination. 

That might actually make it easier to get conservatives approved but that would be a side effect not the goal.  If individual appointments weren't seen as the most important thing in politics, then fewer people would care that one justice in particular was very conservative or very liberal. 




It wouldn't change that system at all.  It wouldn't make it easier to get conservatives approved.  Democrats just Bork them and take it to the media who champions their cause.  Democrats then nominate extremists and go to the media to attack them for not confirming them.

You aren't addressing the real issue.  If you somehow made it easier for both sides to get qualified nominees confirmed, I'd start to be interested, but you aren't addressing that.  You're just rearranging the deck chairs.

Let's recap:

Off the top of my head:

Republicans:  Screwed with John Paul Stevens, Souter, O'Conner, Kennedy, Roberts and they were denied with Bork.  If you want to go back in history, just consider the FDR years.  Then there's Kavanaugh and Thomas who were treated inhumanly in attempts to Bork them.

Democrats:  Screwed with Garland.  After that, I got nothing.  You?  As recently as Obama, Sotomayor and Kagan were easily confirmed

All you want to address is Garland and codify a system that ensures a leftist SCOTUS because Democrats will and have denied Republicans.  This is the first time the Republicans fought back and suddenly that's what you're targeting "fixing"

EDIT:  When I said you want to codify a leftist SCOTUS, I meant that is the effect of your policy, not your intent
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:06am by kaz »  

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Jeff
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #57 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:34am
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:44pm:
You aren't addressing the real issue.
The real issue is a government with unlimited powers to tax and legislate.

That unlimited power makes it critical to capture the government for your own partisan purposes...

Since their is no way to prevent factions, the best solution is to make it unimportant to have a majority of Justices on the court who share your ideology.

SCOTUS is supposed to be a bulwark protecting our liberties, protecting us from government encroachment on our rights, and making sure that the government operates strictly within it's enumerated grant of powers...

When the government remains within it's enumerated grant of powers, and fulfills it's assigned duties, it's not worth going to a lot of trouble to capture.
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #58 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:08am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:34am:
The real issue is a government with unlimited powers to tax and legislate.

That unlimited power makes it critical to capture the government for your own partisan purposes...

Since their is no way to prevent factions, the best solution is to make it unimportant to have a majority of Justices on the court who share your ideology.

SCOTUS is supposed to be a bulwark protecting our liberties, protecting us from government encroachment on our rights, and making sure that the government operates strictly within it's enumerated grant of powers...

When the government remains within it's enumerated grant of powers, and fulfills it's assigned duties, it's not worth going to a lot of trouble to capture.


No fing shit.  Dude, you're on a libertarian message board
  

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Jeff
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #59 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:13am
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:08am:
No fing shit.  Dude, you're on a libertarian message board
It's often hard to tell that this is a libertarian forum.

Anyway, if you can say "You aren't addressing the real issue", then so can I. Smiley
  

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