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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended? (Read 606 times)
ahhell
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #60 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:44pm
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Kaz,

The only way to get a more conservative SCOTUS with out dismantling the currently system is to elect more conservative Senators and Presidents. 

What my plan does is let folks find other reasons to vote for the president than the SCOTUS, that is all I want it to do.   What's your plan to enconservative to Supreme court?
  
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Jeff
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #61 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:22pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:44pm:
Kaz,

The only way to get a more conservative SCOTUS with out dismantling the currently system is to elect more conservative Senators and Presidents. 

What my plan does is let folks find other reasons to vote for the president than the SCOTUS, that is all I want it to do.   What's your plan to enconservative to Supreme court? 
I don't want the Supreme Court to be either conservative or "progressive", and I don't want the President to have any powers other than those granted to the President by the Constitution.

Here's what the Federalist said about judges and justices serving on "good behavior" as mentioned in Story's Commentaries at Book 3, Chapter 38:

Sec. 1596. “If then, the courts of justice are to be considered, as the bulwarks of a limited constitution against legislative encroachments; this consideration will afford a strong argument for the permanent tenure of judicial offices, since nothing will contribute, so much as this, to that independent spirit in the judges, which must be essential to the faithful performance of so arduous a duty. This independence of the judges is equally requisite to guard the constitution and the rights of individuals from the effects of those ill humours, which the arts of designing men, or the influence of particular conjunctures, sometimes disseminate among the people themselves; and which, though they speedily give place to better information, and more deliberate reflection, have a tendency, in the mean time, to occasion dangerous innovations in the government, and serious oppressions of the minor party in the community."

I'm not yet convinced that your plan will do a better job of promoting independence in the courts.
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #62 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:22pm:
I'm not yet convinced that your plan will do a better job of promoting independence in the courts.

I'm trying to give voter's more independence from the courts rather than  promote independence of the court.  That being said, I don't think it will substantially reduce judicial independence.  1 term, no more. They can't keep the job no matter what, so they should be able to let there conscience and the law guide there decisions.

Its solely meant to prevent people voting for the likes of Trump/Hillary because the courts.
  
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #63 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:45pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:44pm:
Kaz,

The only way to get a more conservative SCOTUS with out dismantling the currently system is to elect more conservative Senators and Presidents. 

What my plan does is let folks find other reasons to vote for the president than the SCOTUS, that is all I want it to do.   What's your plan to enconservative to Supreme court? 


My point was that you're fixated on Garland as if the Democrats were the ones who have been screwed by the current process when I listed a bunch of Republicans situations, and neither of us can think of a second Democrat situation past Garland.  My plan is what the Republicans are finally doing, fighting back.  I fear that won't last when Trump is gone.

Democrats have used that they don't need to confirm Republican picks for almost a century.  Republicans just discovered that can work both ways and suddenly you want to stop it.

Garland wasn't entitled to a "vote," that isn't in the Constitution.  The Republicans said no.  Just like the Democrats have repeatedly done to them.  I don't care that Garland didn't get a vote.  There is nothing in Constitution or ethical terms entitling him to one.  Obama could have nominated a soft conservative like the Republicans kept trying to do when they tried to nominate soft liberals.  Unfortunately for them, they kept turning into hard leftists.  Obama didn't do that.  He decided to keep the hard left Garland out there and fight a PR battle over it.

The only difference your plan makes regarding voting is that you want to make it easier for Democrats and their lap dog media to attack Republicans for not confirming Democrat nominated leftists.  I don't share that objective.

I am however in agreement with your plan for 18 year terms.   We need to end this crap where we have Ginsburg who will go out in a body bag
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #64 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:53pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:36pm:
I'm trying to give voter's more independence from the courts rather than  promote independence of the court.  That being said, I don't think it will substantially reduce judicial independence.  1 term, no more. They can't keep the job no matter what, so they should be able to let there conscience and the law guide there decisions.

Its solely meant to prevent people voting for the likes of Trump/Hillary because the courts. 


I would like that, but I don't think your plan will accomplish that.  Each Presidential term in your plan = 2 picks.  They will still say, but the courts.

But the courts is a powerful argument.  It's one that almost works on me.  I just have the standard for Republicans that they need to give me one reason to vote for them.  Not to vote against Democrats, to vote for them.  They consistently can't do it
  

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Jeff
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #65 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:56pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:36pm:
Its solely meant to prevent people voting for the likes of Trump/Hillary because the courts. 
That's a good goal, but I'm not convinced your plan will have only that effect. Unlike you, I think an independent judiciary is essential to protecting our liberty, and I think your plan might have the opposite effect, that it might make the judiciary more dependent on the political branches of our government.

Justices who are rotated out will be looking for appointments, and looking to run for office, and their record on the court could be helpful in those later endeavors.
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #66 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:56pm:
That's a good goal, but I'm not convinced your plan will have only that effect. Unlike you, I think an independent judiciary is essential to protecting our liberty, and I think your plan might have the opposite effect, that it might make the judiciary more dependent on the political branches of our government.

Justices who are rotated out will be looking for appointments, and looking to run for office, and their record on the court could be helpful in those later endeavors.

Seems unlikely, they'll mostly be in their late sixties when when they term out, if you want to be sure, make an age requirement, they have to be 45 when taking office or some such.  Though, I don't actually think you are right, I don't think that is a substantial risk.  I do value judicial indepenence though.

kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:53pm:
I would like that, but I don't think your plan will accomplish that.  Each Presidential term in your plan = 2 picks.  They will still say, but the courts.

But the courts is a powerful argument.  It's one that almost works on me.  I just have the standard for Republicans that they need to give me one reason to vote for them.  Not to vote against Democrats, to vote for them.  They consistently can't do it
So.
A.  Do you think it would be a good idea to nullify the "But the Courts" argument?
B.  Do you have a better idea to do so?         
C.  I don't actually intend to change the make up of the court with this idea, so its not really a valid criticism.  Like saying, "I don't like your shade of blue because it isn't red".  Valid criticisms would be, if you don't think my goal is worthwhile or you don't think this plan would be particularly effective at defanging the the SCOTUS as a political issue.             

I think Jeff is basically right, if we actually demanded that the congress, president, and courts actually stick to the constitutional limits, then the courts wouldn't loom heavily over  every presidential election.  That chicken has flown the coupe though. 

Edit, you have a valid point about Bork, Bork and conservatives were screwed on that one, they were almost screwed on Kavanaugh too.  The rest are the fault or the GOP.  They Nominated people who were'nt reliable by your standards.
  
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #67 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:43pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:45pm:
Garland wasn't entitled to a "vote," that isn't in the Constitution.  The Republicans said no.  Just like the Democrats have repeatedly done to them.  I don't care that Garland didn't get a vote.  There is nothing in Constitution or ethical terms entitling him to one.  Obama could have nominated a soft conservative like the Republicans kept trying to do when they tried to nominate soft liberals.  Unfortunately for them, they kept turning into hard leftists.  Obama didn't do that.  He decided to keep the hard left Garland out there and fight a PR battle over it.
Which is what would be changed.  I'm not fixating on Garland I'm fixating on keeping the constant rotation of justices under each president on track. Quote:
The only difference your plan makes regarding voting is that you want to make it easier for Democrats and their lap dog media to attack Republicans for not confirming Democrat nominated leftists.  I don't share that objective.
The left dominated media isn't the only game in town anymore.  The Dems would have to find excuses to vote down multiple nominees too.
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I am however in agreement with your plan for 18 year terms.   We need to end this crap where we have Ginsburg who will go out in a body bag
The court is a bit odd currently.  There's 3 folks who've been on the court for twice as long as anyone else.
  
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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #68 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:55pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:30pm:
I think Jeff is basically right, if we actually demanded that the congress, president, and courts actually stick to the constitutional limits, then the courts wouldn't loom heavily over  every presidential election.  That chicken has flown the coupe though. 


Yes, the founders considered the judiciary the weakest by far branch of government.  Then one day, they discovered they could legislate from the bench and became the strongest.  If the courts simply followed the Constitution and the law, they would be irrelevant.  But of course, that isn't going to happen.  The Genie is out of the bottle.  They issue decrees, and there is no way to stop them.  The conservatives are bad, the leftists on the court are worse.

That's why I have proposed that the Constitution should be defended by the State legislatures rather than judicial review.   Power divided is power checked.  The branches of the government aren't power divided, they all benefit from the Federal government getting bigger.  It's like assigning your defense to make the holding calls on your offense

ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:30pm:
you have a valid point about Bork, Bork and conservatives were screwed on that one, they were almost screwed on Kavanaugh too.  The rest are the fault or the GOP.  They Nominated people who were'nt reliable by your standards.   


Thomas also went through almost what Kavanaugh did. 

On the Republicans being at fault for the rest, I did say that.  This is the first time they are fighting back
  

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Re: How should USA (United States of America) Constitution be amended?
Reply #69 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 5:00pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:43pm:
Which is what would be changed.  I'm not fixating on Garland I'm fixating on keeping the constant rotation of justices under each president on track


OK on the rotation, and I'd like to see term limits too, but it doesn't take the but the courts argument out of elections.

Also, the news people see is still overwhelmingly left.  Yes, there are alternatives.  But the leftists still have a virtual monopoly on main street news reporting
  

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