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SkyChief
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Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:02pm
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The Libertarian Party is a strong advocate of Open Borders:

"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States."


That makes sense.  However, many of the libertarians I have spoken with OPPOSE open borders.

A possible explanation for this is the libertarians who I have spoken to (either vis-a-vis or on forums) are mostly Californians.  California is unique in that we have the largest per-capita concentration of illegal immigrants in the nation.

We see immigration as a threat to our property because to pay for it, the state takes our property (via taxation) and redistributes to needy immigrants.

Welfare AND open borders just doesn't work.  We can have one or the other - not both.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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ahhell
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #1 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:28pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:02pm:
Welfare AND open borders just doesn't work.  We can have one or the other - not both.
That's pretty much the explanation most anti-open borders libertarians use.   

I'm ambivalent about open borders.  Intellectually, I should be for them.  I have some excuses for opposing them though.
  
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Industry
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #2 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 3:14pm
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They say white people are against open borders cause they are lazy and stupid and do not want to lose their jobs but keep all the resources for themselves is that true?

I know you do not think it is true about how America has all the resources but people keep saying that and they show how we have all the places to grow food and stuff.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #3 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 4:49pm
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Industry wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 3:14pm:
They say white people are against open borders cause they are lazy and stupid and do not want to lose their jobs but keep all the resources for themselves is that true?

I know you do not think it is true about how America has all the resources but people keep saying that and they show how we have all the places to grow food and stuff.

Who says this?

From the left I mostly hear, lots of white people who are for strong borders are racists.

From the right I hear, immigration will change the culture in undesirable ways.
  
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Industry
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #4 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 4:49pm:
Who says this?


People at my school some of them are really radical.

I kind of believe the jobs thing cause when the Spanish people get here they all work no problem and sometimes white people just whine how they can't get a job maybe not so much now it is easy to get a job but when the recession was big they would but the Spanish people still all got jobs.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #5 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:02pm:
The Libertarian Party is a strong advocate of Open Borders:

"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States."


That makes sense.  However, many of the libertarians I have spoken with OPPOSE open borders.

A possible explanation for this is the libertarians who I have spoken to (either vis-a-vis or on forums) are mostly Californians.  California is unique in that we have the largest per-capita concentration of illegal immigrants in the nation.

We see immigration as a threat to our property because to pay for it, the state takes our property (via taxation) and redistributes to needy immigrants.

Welfare AND open borders just doesn't work.  We can have one or the other - not both.



If we were to instantly switch to a libertarian system, within a few months, we would need as many unskilled workers to come to the U.S. as fast as they could get here.  For one thing, they would be needed to help bury all the people that tax-and-spenders keep telling us will die without government assistance.

Just kidding about that last part, of course.  Under a truly free market, we would need workers at all skill levels.  There would be some inconveniences, no doubt lines at stores would be longer until more are built.  Those off-grid prepper people might take to selling their reserves since a free market guarantees against ninety percent of the societal breakdowns they fear. 

Actually, since the Kaz types of the world will find their EBT card no longer being filled up or whatever they call it, grocery lines may be shorter. 

In a real transition to libertarianism, opening the borders should probably be the last step.  You know, clean up the house and then invite company.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #6 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:42pm
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Industry wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
People at my school some of them are really radical.

I kind of believe the jobs thing cause when the Spanish people get here they all work no problem and sometimes white people just whine how they can't get a job maybe not so much now it is easy to get a job but when the recession was big they would but the Spanish people still all got jobs.

The jobs thing is probably the best argument, the problem with it is that if make it harder low skilled labor to immigrate to the US, it creates an black market for labor that is a lot cheaper than if you just allowed those workers to come here legally.

Off the books labor costs nothing but wages, legal labor cost about 3x more due to the overhead and taxes.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #7 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 9:52pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:42pm:
Off the books labor costs nothing but wages, legal labor cost about 3x more due to the overhead and taxes. 


Then let the citizens get jobs off the books. They certainly can, they just choose not to.

I unconditionally support open borders because my goal is to be libertarian, not to stay alive. And certainly not to help a few people engage in protectionism so they can stay alive, while more industrious people starve.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #8 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 10:22pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In a real transition to libertarianism, opening the borders should probably be the last step.  You know, clean up the house and then invite company.

Well said!   Smiley

Open Borders is a wonderful goal.  Let's make it happen.  But we have some house-cleaning, first. 
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #9 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 10:45pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 10:22pm:
Well said!   Smiley

Open Borders is a wonderful goal.  Let's make it happen.  But we have some house-cleaning, first. 


This is why I feel like I'm trying harder than anyone else, and still failing harder.

Fine. Clearly I am wrong. I reverse my position. Whatever everyone else said.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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