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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders (Read 473 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #20 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:01pm:
https://mises.org/library/open-borders-are-assault-private-property

Look at the comments to see how hard it's getting slammed by bigger libertarians.

Yes but the "bigger" libertarians have their facts wrong.

Anarchy Prime says  "Illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than citizens do."  That is false. He meant to say Illegal immigrants have lower arrest/incarceration rates than citizens do.  Which is true.   Their crime rate is actually much higher than citizens because they are breaking the law by just being here.

He then goes on to say "not all illegal immigrants victimize citizens."

FALSE.  FALSE. FALSE.   98% of illegals are a burden to American taxpayers the moment they step foot on US soil.   

The point is, these "libertarian heavyweights" are lightweights when it comes to facts.

No wonder they come to the wrong conclusion.    Grin

commenter Richard Storm nails it:

"Democracy turns society into a culture war, and as much as I'd like to have a "live and let live" attitude toward the cultures of others, I cannot in good conscience do this while those from without uninvited come in to transform my culture, the culture of the West, further away from the principles of liberty."
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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yamcha
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #21 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:38pm
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Lots of people don't understand the free market, open borders, freedom of association and freedom of disassociation.

It all has to do with what benefits you.

Here is a picture of a bar in Seoul, Korea that doesn't serve niggers:



They don't care about the Ebola virus.  You can be an American niqqer and show your passport and they still don't let you in.  Why?  Because the moment a Jiggaboo sits down everyone stands up and leaves.

This is an example of how to maximize profits in the free market too.  The free market is not about including everyone and everything.  Many times, the free market demands that you exclude in order to stay in business.

Illegal Mexicans are fukking up the free market by jumping the border.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #22 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:01am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:27pm:
Yes but the "bigger" libertarians have their facts wrong.


It's hard for me to just not care about that, but I'm damn well trying. Honestly I'm looking at the upvote counts. That, to me, is the objective measure of value.

Innately, I care about facts and logic. But I've witnessed those things devalued into nothingness. So, I reason, what is the logic in putting my effort into something worthless?

SkyChief wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:27pm:
Anarchy Prime says  "Illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than citizens do."  That is false. He meant to say Illegal immigrants have lower arrest/incarceration rates than citizens do.  Which is true.   Their crime rate is actually much higher than citizens because they breaking the law by just being here.

He then goes on to say "not all illegal immigrants victimize citizens."

FALSE.  FALSE. FALSE.   98% of illegals are a burden to American taxpayers the moment they step foot on US soil.   

The point is, these "libertarian heavyweights" are lightweights when it comes to facts.


Well, their facts are doctored. But like the Democrats, chuckling  to each other as they congratulate one another on being "in" on the game, I look from the outside and see the immense value of being in.

SkyChief wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:27pm:
commenter Richard Storm nails it:

"Democracy turns society into a culture war, and as much as I'd like to have a "live and let live" attitude toward the cultures of others, I cannot in good conscience do this while those from without uninvited come in to transform my culture, the culture of the West, further away from the principles of liberty."


I actually upvoted that comment because it's spot-on about the result. I disagree with him about how someone liberty-minded must respond to the situation.

It hurts, but I will discard logic if it is logical to do so. It is just the same with liberty: If you believe in it, you must follow it, even if it leads liberty to be lost.

The only alternative is the goal of Greatest Sustainable Liberty, which has been shat on by the heavy hitters here.

yamcha wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 11:38pm:
Why?  Because the moment a black person sits down everyone stands up and leaves.


And no one will fault them for that, because they are a business. See, they are just doing what the free market dictates, people will say.

People say that about business owners, but if you start acting like that as a regular person, prepare for Antifa to doxx you and get you fired.

It's a double standard, but the free market has produced it, so I will respect it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #23 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:08am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:02pm:
Welfare AND open borders just doesn't work.  We can have one or the other - not both.
I think it depends largely on the "welfare". If "welfare" provides a comfortable middle class existence, many people are tempted to live on "welfare". If "welfare" provides nothing but what is barely adequate to live in poverty, most people will want to work.

An interesting article about the growth of the welfare state:

https://people.eou.edu/socwelf/readings/week-2/welfare-expands-in-the-1960s/

From the article:

"3. benefits were adjusted to local labor markets (remember the principle that welfare should be less appealing than the lowest employment opportunities)–so, where were they higher, Alabama or Manhattan?"

America needs immigrants, but we want them to  come here because they want to create a better life for themselves by working. Getting a job has the added benefit of forcing most immigrants to assimilate into the social economy.
  

"Free hate speech"
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #24 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:08am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:02pm:
The Libertarian Party is a strong advocate of Open Borders:

"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States."


That makes sense.  However, many of the libertarians I have spoken with OPPOSE open borders.

A possible explanation for this is the libertarians who I have spoken to (either vis-a-vis or on forums) are mostly Californians.  California is unique in that we have the largest per-capita concentration of illegal immigrants in the nation.

We see immigration as a threat to our property because to pay for it, the state takes our property (via taxation) and redistributes to needy immigrants.

Welfare AND open borders just doesn't work.  We can have one or the other - not both.


One of the two main reasons I won't join the libertarian party.  The other is their support of the income tax.  They say they don't, but they oppose indirect taxes to replace it, which is effectively supporting it.  The income tax and all direct taxes are evil
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #25 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:12am
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ahhell wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 2:28pm:
That's pretty much the explanation most anti-open borders libertarians use.   

I'm ambivalent about open borders.  Intellectually, I should be for them.  I have some excuses for opposing them though.


Intellectually you don't have an issue with slavery, sex trafficking, drug lords, organized crime and repeat criminals having free access to the country?

That is exactly why I oppose open borders.  They had it right during the great Ellis Island days.  The government should check people out entering the country to ensure they have no criminal record, are not carrying diseases and they can support themselves.   If those three are true, let them come. 

But let them come without checking those three out?  Completely insane
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #26 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:15am
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ahhell wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 4:49pm:
Who says this?

From the left I mostly hear, lots of white people who are for strong borders are racists.

From the right I hear, immigration will change the culture in undesirable ways.


You're not listening very well.  There are a small group on the "right" who say about the culture, but the big issue is crime and welfare.

Also, even the "culture" argument as you stated it is misleading.  The issue with "culture" is not people who don't go to church for pot luck dinners, the issue is when people come here without learning the language or otherwise intending to integrate into American society.  Integrating their culture into ours as prior immigrants did is great.  Staying siloed isn't.  There were lots of waves from different countries coming here, but in the past they came to be Americans
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #27 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:18am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
If we were to instantly switch to a libertarian system, within a few months, we would need as many unskilled workers to come to the U.S. as fast as they could get here.  For one thing, they would be needed to help bury all the people that tax-and-spenders keep telling us will die without government assistance.

Just kidding about that last part, of course.  Under a truly free market, we would need workers at all skill levels.  There would be some inconveniences, no doubt lines at stores would be longer until more are built.  Those off-grid prepper people might take to selling their reserves since a free market guarantees against ninety percent of the societal breakdowns they fear. 

Actually, since the Kaz types of the world will find their EBT card no longer being filled up or whatever they call it, grocery lines may be shorter. 

In a real transition to libertarianism, opening the borders should probably be the last step.  You know, clean up the house and then invite company.


You know how you came in skipping and bubbling because your dad said you give the best blow jobs?  Then the next you were down in the dumps because he said your mom did?  Have you ever considered your dad is just manipulating you for blow jobs?
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #28 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:23am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 27th, 2019 at 11:46pm:
Good.

I was with you in spirit. 

The Scots make mighty fine whiskey.  But don't let them think they're the only ones who can.

https://i.redd.it/aflxv5a5jx041.jpg


I was working with a Scotsman when I worked in the Netherlands.  He was polite enough, but quiet and kept to himself.  One day he asked me my favorite Scotch.  I thought a second and said Lagavulin.   He paused, then said, the best Scotch in all of Scotland.  After that, we were buddies.  How to make friends with a Scotsman, pick his favorite Scotch!
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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yamcha
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #29 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:39am
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:23am:
I was working with a Scotsman when I worked in the Netherlands.  He was polite enough, but quiet and kept to himself.  One day he asked me my favorite Scotch.  I thought a second and said Lagavulin.   He paused, then said, the best Scotch in all of Scotland.  After that, we were buddies.  How to make friends with a Scotsman, pick his favorite Scotch!


By the way buddy, your half bear can hangover cure worked.  I usually don't approve of chasing the hair of the dog but without that half can of warm beer, I wouldn't have even been able to get out of bed and put my pants on.
  
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