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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders (Read 472 times)
ahhell
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #30 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:12am:
Intellectually you don't have an issue with slavery, sex trafficking, drug lords, organized crime and repeat criminals having free access to the country?
Intellectually, I understand that restrictive border policies big contributors to the problems you list.  Quote:
That is exactly why I oppose open borders.  They had it right during the great Ellis Island days.  The government should check people out entering the country to ensure they have no criminal record, are not carrying diseases and they can support themselves.   If those three are true, let them come. 

But let them come without checking those three out?  Completely insane
I won't argue.  I should have been more clear, I didn't mean, no borders.  I meant, essentially unlimited immigration with the US having every right to some appropriate gate keeping.

kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:15am:
You're not listening very well.  There are a small group on the "right" who say about the culture, but the big issue is crime and welfare.

Also, even the "culture" argument as you stated it is misleading.  The issue with "culture" is not people who don't go to church for pot luck dinners, the issue is when people come here without learning the language or otherwise intending to integrate into American society.  Integrating their culture into ours as prior immigrants did is great.  Staying siloed isn't.  There were lots of waves from different countries coming here, but in the past they came to be Americans
Crime and welfare BS though.  The evidence is clear that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes(other than visa overstays and illegal border crossing) than natives.  I believe they are less likely to receive benefits from the welfare state too.  I could be wrong about that last bit

Very few immigrants ever came here to be American.  They came here mostly for economic reasons with some coming to avoid political persecution.  There is a big cultural difference now.  In the past there was nobody saying, "Its racist for the US to want you to assimilate"  In the past, even the immigrants rights groups and progressives were telling immigrants it was there duty to assimilate.
  
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #31 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:02pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
Intellectually, I understand that restrictive border policies big contributors to the problems you list. 


I don't know what that means

ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
I won't argue.  I should have been more clear, I didn't mean, no borders.  I meant, essentially unlimited immigration with the US having every right to some appropriate gate keeping.


OK, fair enough.  When people say "open borders" to me that implies no border control at all, they just walk in like they do now.  If you mean we don't need to cap immigration, I agree.  As long as they are not criminals, not carrying illnesses and they can support themselves, they are welcome

ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
Crime and welfare BS though.  The evidence is clear that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes(other than visa overstays and illegal border crossing) than natives


Right, but we're talking about illegal aliens regarding open borders.  Statistics on "immigrants" is irrelevant.

BTW, 23% of Federal prisoners are illegal aliens.  Democrats manipulate the crime statistics by not counting the criminals who cross the border regularly and go back.  Drug dealers, gangs, coyotes, etc.



ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
I believe they are less likely to receive benefits from the welfare state too.  I could be wrong about that last bit


Well, since you went from illegal aliens to the irrelevant "immigrants," I'm not sure if you're right or not.  But it's not right for illegal aliens who are massively on welfare.  What they do is put the children on welfare to get around the law.   But the money goes to the household.  Even more so if you count the free education and medical care they are getting

ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
Very few immigrants ever came here to be American.  They came here mostly for economic reasons with some coming to avoid political persecution.  There is a big cultural difference now.  In the past there was nobody saying, "Its racist for the US to want you to assimilate"  In the past, even the immigrants rights groups and progressives were telling immigrants it was there duty to assimilate.


That's sort of a warp of my point.  I said they came here with the intention of being Americans and assimilating, which is true.  You turned that into a point about what made them want to do that.  Yes, they loved our freedom and our economy and capitalism and wanted to come here.  Then they wanted to assimilate and be Americans.  Those aren't different things.

You lost me on the race part, but other than a few neonazi nuts, Americans are welcoming to all LEGAL immigrants, which includes the ability to support themselves.  It's Democrats who target race driven immigration and want immigrants who can't support themselves because they are targeting Democrat voter demographics and the ability to manipulate them with identity politics
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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SkyChief
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #32 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:16pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
  The evidence is clear that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes(other than visa overstays and illegal border crossing) than natives.  I believe they are less likely to receive benefits from the welfare state too.  I could be wrong about that last bit.
You are, because the real cost of supporting illegals isn't covered just by welfare.

Go into any emergency room in California.  What do you see?  Mostly immigrant moms with their gaggle of kids in tow - one which has a bad cough or a tummy ache.  God help you if you're actually gravely injured, and need immediate medical attention.

Driving on public roads is a nightmare because of illegals.   If one hits you, he/she WILL flee.  You're stuck with paying for all of the damages to your car and/or person.

Insurance companies know this, so your uninsured motorist coverage is artificially high.  That's a cost you never thought about.   It's not welfare, but you're certainly paying out the nose for it.

Try driving from Sunset Boulevard to the 101/405 interchange in Sherman Oaks - its only 6.6 miles.

During certain times of the day, this 6.6 mile drive can take over an HOUR.   The (405) road is NINETEEN LANES WIDE at points!

What percentage of these drivers are illegals?   I don't know.   But if if you hit a big red button and made them all disappear, traffic would flow a lot better - I guarantee it.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #33 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:44pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
Crime and welfare BS though.  The evidence is clear that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes (other than visa overstays and illegal border crossing) than natives.  I believe they are less likely to receive benefits from the welfare state too.  I could be wrong about that last bit.


You're not wrong. They don't even qualify for welfare. As Jeff points out, they are less likely to be on welfare or commit a crime than natives.

Jeff wrote on Apr 6th, 2018 at 9:29am:
Overall, immigrants commit fewer crimes per capita, are more likely to be working and generally pay taxes on what they earn.


ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 11:50am:
Very few immigrants ever came here to be American.  They came here mostly for economic reasons with some coming to avoid political persecution.  There is a big cultural difference now.  In the past there was nobody saying, "Its racist for the US to want you to assimilate"  In the past, even the immigrants rights groups and progressives were telling immigrants it was there duty to assimilate.


This is spot on but it's a natural change we should embrace, because it's generated by the free market.

The racism comes in where lazy, stupid white workers want to keep "their culture" which means artificially high living standards even though they are unskilled.

They need to compete on the free market for their jobs. Yes, against everyone who wants those jobs.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:16pm:
You are, because the real cost of supporting illegals isn't covered just by welfare.

Go into any emergency room in California.  What do you see?  Mostly immigrant moms with their gaggle of kids in tow - one which has a bad cough or a tummy ache.  God help you if you're actually gravely injured, and need immediate medical attention.

Driving on public roads is a nightmare because of illegals.   If one hits you, he/she WILL flee.  You're stuck with paying for all of the damages to your car and/or person.

Insurance companies know this, so your uninsured motorist coverage is artificially high.  That's a cost you never thought about.   It's not welfare, but you're certainly paying out the nose for it.

Try driving from Sunset Boulevard to the 101/405 interchange in Sherman Oaks - its only 6.6 miles.

During certain times of the day, this 6.6 mile drive can take over an HOUR.   The (405) road is NINETEEN LANES WIDE at points!

What percentage of these drivers are illegals?   I don't know.   But if if you hit a big red button and made them all disappear, traffic would flow a lot better - I guarantee it.


So your entire argument is, "...because they inconvenience me."

If you want uninsured motorist coverage, pay for it. The cost is the cost. It's not "artificially" high, it's high because those are the conditions and what the free market has determined the price should be. In fact, it's probably artificially low because government is still engaging in some protectionism for your benefit, against the nasty brown people you see in the ER and assume they're illegal.

Did you check their IDs? No, you did not.

You just saw they were a different colour than you and your brain reset to tribal mode.

(Note: All that proceeds is what I have learned about how a real libertarian responds. But I won't get treated like a libertarian because I said it. I'll get jumped on and have to retract, so I preemptively retract everything I just said, even though I know it's right, or at least, it will be when Jeff says it.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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ahhell
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #34 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:02pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:02pm:
You lost me on the race part, but other than a few neonazi nuts, Americans are welcoming to all LEGAL immigrants, which includes the ability to support themselves.  It's Democrats who target race driven immigration and want immigrants who can't support themselves because they are targeting Democrat voter demographics and the ability to manipulate them with identity politics
I'll have to think about the rest but let me try an clear this up.

There are people in the US who currently claim that asking immigrants to assimilate is racist.  That is relatively new and quite stupid.  There are quite a lot of people who seem to think that its a terrible thing to ask immigrants to modify their cultures and behaviors to suit their new culture, instead they seem to think the host culture should change.  That is stupid and new.

In the past, even the pro-immigrant groups thought that immigrants should become more American and supported classes and what not to encourage that.  The message was go to school and learn english, not teach school in some other language.  That is quite a change and not a good one.  That is the only real way in which modern immigration is significantly different from the mass migrations of 100 years ago. 
  
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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #35 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:05pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:02pm:
I'll have to think about the rest but let me try an clear this up.

There are people in the US who currently claim that asking immigrants to assimilate is racist.  That is relatively new and quite stupid.  There are quite a lot of people who seem to think that its a terrible thing to ask immigrants to modify their cultures and behaviors to suit their new culture, instead they seem to think the host culture should change.  That is stupid and new.

In the past, even the pro-immigrant groups thought that immigrants should become more American and supported classes and what not to encourage that.  The message was go to school and learn english, not teach school in some other language.  That is quite a change and not a good one.  That is the only real way in which modern immigration is significantly different from the mass migrations of 100 years ago. 


OK, I get it now.  Thanks for clearing that up.  Yes, I agree
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #36 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:44pm:
So your entire argument is, "...because [illegals] inconvenience me."
My point is that Californians pay a hefty price to support illegals.

Only a fraction of that price comes from welfare.

The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 12:44pm:
In fact, it's probably artificially low because government is still engaging in some protectionism for your benefit, against the nasty brown people you see in the ER and assume they're illegal.

Did you check their IDs? No, you did not.

You just saw they were a different colour than you and your brain reset to tribal mode.
Nonsense.

(I'll explain in PM)

Some are not, but most of them are illegals.   The illegals using Emergency Rooms as primary-care forced the two L.A. area Daniel Freeman hospitals to CLOSE THEIR DOORS FOREVER.

This made matters even worse, because then illegals started using other Emergency Rooms at Cedars and Kaiser Permanente since their local Daniel Freeman facility closed.   Now they had to drive many miles to clog the Emergency waiting rooms.

Traffic worsened for Angelinos. 
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #37 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:09pm
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Illegals are everywhere in CA and besides the tax resources they suck up, they commit a lot of crime.  Besides murder, rape, robbery, vandalism, their neighborhoods are filthy and health hazards.  They will crash into your car and just take off.

Other than that, spics and blacks lower the intellectual level of America.  They make America more low-class than the southern hillbillies.
  
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #38 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:28pm
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yamcha wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:09pm:
Illegals are everywhere in CA and besides the tax resources they suck up, they commit a lot of crime.  Besides murder, rape, robbery, vandalism, their neighborhoods are filthy and health hazards.  They will crash into your car and just take off.

Other than that, spics and blacks lower the intellectual level of America.  They make America more low-class than the southern hillbillies.
Do you have any real evidence for these claims?

Here's some rational discussion and some numbers:

https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-crime-assessing-evidence

What is needed is better immigration law, so that more of these people can be here legally.
  

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kaz
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Re: Many Libertarians Are Against Open Borders
Reply #39 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:23pm
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yamcha wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:09pm:
They make America more low-class than the southern hillbillies


Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:28pm:
Do you have any real evidence for these claims?


You're here every day proving that about southern hillbillies
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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