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Poll Question: Ivory Farms
bars   pie

Total Autonomy for Ivory Farms    
  2 (66.7%)
Some Protection for Elephants    
  1 (33.3%)




Total votes: 3
This Poll ends automatically in 6 days, 6 hours and 29 minutes.
« Created by: The Opposition on: Dec 1st, 2019 at 2:04pm »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To... (Read 688 times)
kaz
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #20 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 6:00pm:
Well, dead animals aren't living.

It's also libertarian to raise them for meat, and milk, leather and fur, all that stuff, and to buy the products that are produced. Smiley


Agreed, different subject
  

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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #21 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:31pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 6:43pm:
By your definition of libertarian, sure.  Your definition of libertarianism means that government uses guns to control the population, not the other way around.




If I believe we should protect animals, then I think guns are to control the population.  Wow.  There's no possible way to get that out of what I said.  I didn't even say the definition of libertarian is to protect animals, I said it's not unlibertarian to protect them.   I don't see a libertarian position on the issue, just like there isn't a libertarian position on using golf carts on golf courses

  

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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #22 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:03pm:
You think he meant to say "tyrannize" the people?


Or for you, it's "conquer" the people
  

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kaz
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #23 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:33pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:03pm:
Only under Kaz' definition.

You would never approve of that unless it was to collect taxes.

Right?



Your mom's really giving it to you today, huh?  And you're really giving it back to her ...
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #24 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:40pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:31pm:
If I believe we should protect animals, then I think guns are to control the population.  Wow.  There's no possible way to get that out of what I said.  I didn't even say the definition of libertarian is to protect animals, I said it's not unlibertarian to protect them.


Well, if you're not going to bandy words like Jeff, I want to ask you what you mean by protecting them.

Pretend the raccoons in that video are elephants being skinned alive, or having their tusks ripped out while they're alive, then they're left to bleed to death because it's expensive to kill them.

What should happen to the entrepreneurs at that elephant farm? Should they be forced to treat their elephants better (maybe have an inspection or two, tell them what they're doing wrong, show them better ways to do things) or should their elephants be removed from them?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #25 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:56pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:31pm:
If I believe we should protect animals, then I think guns are to control the population.  Wow.  There's no possible way to get that out of what I said.  I didn't even say the definition of libertarian is to protect animals, I said it's not unlibertarian to protect them.   I don't see a libertarian position on the issue, just like there isn't a libertarian position on using golf carts on golf courses



There is libertarian position on whether government should force people to use not use golf carts on golf courses.  There is  libertarian position on whether government or elephant owners should decide how elephants are treated.

  
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #26 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:57pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:56pm:
There is libertarian position on whether government should force people to use not use golf carts on golf courses.  There is  libertarian position on whether government or elephant owners should decide how elephants are treated.



Sure, troll.  "Libertarians" think animals are inanimate objects like books.  Remember how when you joined the board you said you didn't know much about libertarianism before you decided the best way to troll a libertarian message board was to become Super Libertarian Man!!!  You raced right past us to anarchy!
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #27 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:13pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:57pm:
Sure, troll.  "Libertarians" think animals are inanimate objects like books.  Remember how when you joined the board you said you didn't know much about libertarianism before you decided the best way to troll a libertarian message board was to become Super Libertarian Man!!!  You raced right past us to anarchy!


If animals have rights that a libertarian government would be in the business of protecting, that government will be mighty busy.  Few humans have ever been as cruel to animals as other animals are. I'm guessing that the first mission you would assign to the new agencies required for this would be protecting dolphins and seals from sharks?

Or perhaps protecting small animals and insects from elephants?  Their feet seem almost designed to kill as many of them as possible with every step. 

Well, it's your idea, I'll let you explain it.  Which animal on animal cruelty will your proposed new agencies eliminate first?

   
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #28 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:54pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:13pm:
Well, it's your idea, I'll let you explain it.


Kaz does not believe that animals have rights. However, he does believe that a legitimate, libertarian, minarchist government is within its legitimate powers to protect those animals.

...From abuse, I assume.

...From what... libertarians think is abuse. I assume.

...And not just anyone who says they're a libertarian. That would be ridiculous.

...Only those who actually are libertarian.

...By Kaz's definition, which is the only correct one.

Little Biq Man wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:13pm:
If animals have rights that a libertarian government would be in the business of protecting, that government will be mighty busy.  Few humans have ever been as cruel to animals as other animals are. I'm guessing that the first mission you would assign to the new agencies required for this would be protecting dolphins and seals from sharks?

Or perhaps protecting small animals and insects from elephants?  Their feet seem almost designed to kill as many of them as possible with every step. 


This doesn't reduce to an absurdity any more than me not trying to rally the Vulcan government to punish a bunch of Klingons for what we Vulcans think amounts to murdering each other on their own homeworld.

Even if they are fully people, with full rights, there's such a thing as outside of someone's legitimate jurisdiction. Being another species more than qualifies as that. So a shark killing a dolphin, no you can't punish the shark. But a Human killing a dolphin? If it's wrong to kill a dolphin, you certainly can punish that Human.

And no, you actually can't punish a shark for killing a Human. You can kill it, and this may or may not be justified, but even were the shark sentient and capable of understanding the process, a trial would be nothing more than a farce, because the shark's laws - the ones he lives by - are different.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #29 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 9:13pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:54pm:
Kaz does not believe that animals have rights. However, he does believe that a legitimate, libertarian, minarchist government is within its legitimate powers to protect those animals.

...From abuse, I assume.

...From what... libertarians think is abuse. I assume.

...And not just anyone who says they're a libertarian. That would be ridiculous.

...Only those who actually are libertarian.

...By Kaz's definition, which is the only correct one.


This doesn't reduce to an absurdity any more than me not trying to rally the Vulcan government to punish a bunch of Klingons for what we Vulcans think amounts to murdering each other on their own homeworld.

Even if they are fully people, with full rights, there's such a thing as outside of someone's legitimate jurisdiction. Being another species more than qualifies as that. So a shark killing a dolphin, no you can't punish the shark. But a Human killing a dolphin? If it's wrong to kill a dolphin, you certainly can punish that Human.

And no, you actually can't punish a shark for killing a Human. You can kill it, and this may or may not be justified, but even were the shark sentient and capable of understanding the process, a trial would be nothing more than a farce, because the shark's laws - the ones he lives by - are different.


No, I was not envisioning any due process for animals.  There exists not a job title of Animal Control Officer (in my state).  They are there among other things, to prevent animals from biting humans.  I assume Kaz would want them also prevented from chasing cats, killing birds, weaving webs on which to trap and eat insects. 

Kaz did not set any size limit for what type of animal he wants the government to use stolen money to protect from cruelty. 

He also, very typically, did not set a size limit on the budget for his new agencies.


  
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