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Poll Question: Ivory Farms
bars   pie

Total Autonomy for Ivory Farms    
  2 (66.7%)
Some Protection for Elephants    
  1 (33.3%)




Total votes: 3
This Poll ends automatically in 15 days, 3 hours and 43 minutes.
« Created by: The Opposition on: Dec 1st, 2019 at 2:04pm »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To... (Read 538 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #40 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:38am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 8:54am:
Poachers shoot them before they take their tusks because it's otherwise very dangerous.

It costs very little to kill one.

Anyone doing what you describe would be a fool, and also be guilty of cruelty to animals.

Libertarians support laws that punish cruelty to animals.


Alright, then vote for "some protection for elephants".

Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 8:59am:
Here's some reading on where U.S. law stands on the subject:

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/03/what-is-considered-animal-cruelty-unde...

Whether or not libertarians had any part in creating these laws is unknown, but libertarians in general think these laws have it about right.


Alright, then vote for "some protection for elephants".

It was a very simple question. Should a business be allowed to do this?

If it's no, then vote no.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #41 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:41am
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:38am:
I've repeatedly said that I think most people on the site ARE basically libertarian.  That includes Ahhell who says he's not one.  I think he mostly is.

The two I said are not are obviously not.  Don is as you know a socialist.  Jeff says many libertarian things, but he says many very unlibertarian things, about the same subjects.  You can't call someone who takes both sides of every subject an anything.

We've repeatedly discussed this, and I've repeatedly called you on your lie that I think I'm the only libertarian.  It's one of the reasons you're on suspension through January.  Since you want to persist in this lie, let's just go ahead and extend your suspension another three months through April.

You are free to disagree with me.  But I'm tired of you lying about what I said.  If you ever decide you will stop lying about what I say, then we can talk.  So far, it appears that isn't going to happen.   Fvck you, piece of shit


I didn't say you thought you were the only libertarian. I said that only people who meet your definition of libertarian are libertarian.

And actually, you've gradually added people to your list. Here you're adding Tom when you previously said he was a neocon.

kaz wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 4:50pm:
So of 7 people, I said 3 of us are libertarians (me, Chief, Tom), two are not (Don, Jeff) two are undetermined (you, EWS).  And I'm saying EWS looks like one.


kaz wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:58am:
I don't think those were excuses not to learn anything, you took the wrong message from them.  You should actually learn more about what you're talking about.  Maybe you'd realize how terrible your neocon ideology is then.  You need to unlearn your ridiculous view that we can make other countries freer by invading their countries and installing governments we like and they didn't pick


(This was a post to Tom.)

And now you add Ahhell.

And I know you don't think I'm a libertarian because no one does.

Probably because no one can find a single example of me saying anyone should be disallowed to do anything.

You and other libertarians get fussy when I point this out because you don't like that the real truth is that libertarians have incredibly low tolerance thresholds for molestation and will very easily say something shouldn't be allowed, either because you judge that it violates your rights or because it offends your moral sensibilities (owning a tiger).

But statists like me won't bother others for doing things we find distasteful because we have very high tolerance thresholds and will almost never say anything violates our rights. We only want laws so we know what's expected of us.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #42 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:48am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:41am:
I didn't say you thought you were the only libertarian. I said that only people who meet your definition of libertarian are libertarian.


I've repeatedly said that I think libertarians and the libertarian party need to be inclusive and draw people in.  If they support the war on terror but oppose the war on drugs, draw them in with the war on drugs.  Draw them in supporting free speech over the PC Nazis.  Most people have some libertarian views.  Get them to see how wrong government is over time on the other things too.   You saying that I'm judgmental about who is and isn't allowed to be one is the same lie.

You've been on the site longer than I have, you know Don is a socialist.  And my argument with Jeff wasn't a purity test, it's the accurate statement that he constantly contradicts himself.  I said he does say libertarian things, but he doesn't say them consistently. 

Jeff's at one time or another on every side of every issue driven by ODD and whiskey.  You can't take every side of every issue then claim you have any ideology.  No, he's not libertarian, but he isn't anything else either for the same reason, he contradicts those positions too.

Neither of those are a purity test as you claim I apply.  I'm tired of it.  Disagree with me all you want, but stop LYING
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #43 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 11:02am
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I do know Don is a socialist but I think Jeff is the most libertarian poster on the site, precisely because he's inconsistent.

This thread should show you a little about that. You can say I shouldn't be allowed to have a tiger because I might abuse it, and everyone agreed with you.

But I show you a video of a business actually abusing animals (not just they might do it, but proof), you say they oughtn't be allowed to, and you're getting laughed off the stage. It (sadly) proves that you actually believe in this issue; you're not just leveraging it to win an argument and extend your dominance. You are less libertarian than Jeff. Bigger libertarians will use your true belief in this issue against you. They will laugh at you.

You tried to be consistent is why. You should have said that the fur or ivory industry should have total autonomy. And even now you dare not vote for the protections you believe in.

If you'd just given the correct libertarian answer, you'd have been right. ...That the fur industry is distasteful to you, but those are their animals, and things like that should be solved by boycott, and that you won't be buying any fur or ivory that was cruelly produced, the free market will solve it.

Then, when I asked you why I shouldn't be allowed to have a tiger unless I prove I'll treat it humanely, you could have said it was different, accused me of absolutism, and laughed me off the stage, and everyone would have supported you.

Also, if you want to suspend me, just do it from January on. I won't care.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #44 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:41pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:48am:
And my argument with Jeff wasn't a purity test, it's the accurate statement that he constantly contradicts himself.
I asked you some time ago to point out any inconsistencies in my positions that you see. I"ll repeat that request, point them out as you see them, thanks.

What's my most glaring inconsistency? The one that stuck in your mind as the very worst?
  

"Free hate speech"
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #45 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 11:02am:
You tried to be consistent is why. You should have said that the fur or ivory industry should have total autonomy. And even now you dare not vote for the protections you believe in.

The best protection for elephants is to have them privately owned, like cattle, and they should have the same protections against being abused as do cattle.
  

"Free hate speech"
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #46 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:41pm:
I asked you some time ago to point out any inconsistencies in my positions that you see. I"ll repeat that request, point them out as you see them, thanks.

What's my most glaring inconsistency? The one that stuck in your mind as the very worst?


I've repeatedly pointed them out.   You have ODD and a big drinking problem.

Winston Churchill:  I can explain it to you, I cannot comprehend it for you
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #47 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:51pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:28pm:
I've repeatedly pointed them out.
But none of them were so egregious that you can remember them? Not even one?
  

"Free hate speech"
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #48 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:51pm:
But none of them were so egregious that you can remember them? Not even one?


You do this to me too. And when I dredge up the quotes, you don't apologise or change your behaviour. Instead, you immediately forget and start over, demanding people provide examples.

You're inconsistent in this very thread, on the one hand saying to protect elephants only as private property, and also saying to make animal abuse illegal. Pick exactly one.

Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:44pm:
The best protection for elephants is to have them privately owned, like cattle, and they should have the same protections against being abused as do cattle.


This is a big weasel %$#&ery and you know it. What protections do cattle have? None that are enforced.

Should abusing elephants be illegal, or should the owners of said elephants decide what to do with their own elephants?

Pick one.

Not zero. Not two. Not any other number.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Should An Ivory Business be Allowed To...
Reply #49 - Dec 3rd, 2019 at 7:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:32pm:
You do this to me too. And when I dredge up the quotes...
I explain how I am in fact consistent, or at least as consistent as it's possible to be when dealing with complex issues that don't have one simple "right or wrong" answer.
  

"Free hate speech"
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