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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia (Read 1875 times)
Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #100 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 6:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 5:39pm:
The law gets real sticky with 'assault rifles' which are inherited.  I think someone has to pay a $200 fee for a waiver . . . I'm not sure, , , ,  Undecided

It's probably not the dead person... Or is it?

What you're saying is that it's a lw that the average person can't understand, which makes it an unconstitutional law.

Edit: Not that that's the only reason it's unconstitutional.
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #101 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 12:34am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 6:01pm:
What you're saying is that it's a lw that the average person can't understand, which makes it an unconstitutional law.
Not really.

I'm saying that I don't understand it - I'm not a lawyer.

It's complicated, and I don't understand it.  Few do.  That's probably intentional.

The easiest way to screw people over is pass laws that are incomprehensible.

It's an old trick that progressives have been using for over a hundred years.

How do you think they passed the Revenue Act of 1913 (Income Tax Bill)?

Obfuscation.   Works like a charm.



  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #102 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:10am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 12:34am:
Not really.

I'm saying that I don't understand it - I'm not a lawyer.

It's complicated, and I don't understand it.  Few do.  That's probably intentional.

The easiest way to screw people over is pass laws that are incomprehensible.



That makes it unconstitutional.

Laws that are not comprehensible to the ordinary people they apply to are unconstitutional.
  

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kaz
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #103 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:52am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:10am:
That makes it unconstitutional.

Laws that are not comprehensible to the ordinary people they apply to are unconstitutional.


Um ... where does the Constitution say that?
  

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yamcha
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #104 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:54am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:10am:
That makes it unconstitutional.

Laws that are not comprehensible to the ordinary people they apply to are unconstitutional.

Bullshit.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #105 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 3:33pm
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yamcha wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:54am:
Bullshit.
Why would they not be?

SCOTUS said as much, but I can't remember the case...

This article mentions it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/too-vague-to-be-constitutio...

This is it in a nutshell:

"Unconstitutional vagueness is a three-legged doctrine. Courts throw out statutes they can’t understand because, first, if a judge can’t understand it then God help the citizen who is trying not to break it; second, if the language is loose then cops and prosecutors can pick and choose cases on arbitrary, and possibly discriminatory, grounds; and, third and probably most important, if courts have to struggle with the language then the legislature has shifted its work—writing the law—to the judiciary, in violation of the separation of powers. The last leg is probably the most important to the Court; the reargument is a sign that, since Congress has done nothing despite repeated urgings, at least four members of the Court are ready to strike down the clause altogether."
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #106 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 3:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 3:33pm:
Why would they not be?

SCOTUS said as much, but I can't remember the case...

This article mentions it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/too-vague-to-be-constitutio...

This is it in a nutshell:

"Unconstitutional vagueness is a three-legged doctrine. Courts throw out statutes they can’t understand because, first, if a judge can’t understand it then God help the citizen who is trying not to break it; second, if the language is loose then cops and prosecutors can pick and choose cases on arbitrary, and possibly discriminatory, grounds; and, third and probably most important, if courts have to struggle with the language then the legislature has shifted its work—writing the law—to the judiciary, in violation of the separation of powers. The last leg is probably the most important to the Court; the reargument is a sign that, since Congress has done nothing despite repeated urgings, at least four members of the Court are ready to strike down the clause altogether."


Right.  Anything vague should be ignored.   I agree with that.   But that's not what you said, you said it was "Unconstitutional."  But I got ya.  You were just Jeffing
  

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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #107 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 5:04pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 3:42pm:
Right.  Anything vague should be ignored.
There are many SCOTUS decisions/opinions/rulings that are also unconstitutionally vague. Shocked

Here's one:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-1394.ZS.html

As you keep saying, over and over and over and over and over, they have guns, and they'll drag you into court and convict you of violating a law that they don't understand, except that they think it gives them free rein to "interpret" the law as they see fit in the instant case.

It's quite tyrannical, but not quite as bad as Star Chambers... We have those now too. It's shameful!
  

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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #108 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 5:17pm
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Here's the vagueness doctrine, right from a SCOTUS opinion:

"Our Constitution is designed to maximize individual freedoms within a framework of ordered liberty. Statutory limitations on those freedoms are examined for substantive authority and content as well as for definiteness or certainty of expression. See generally M. Bassiouni, Substantive Criminal Law 53 (1978).

As generally stated, the void-for-vagueness doctrine requires that a penal statute define the criminal offense with sufficient definiteness that ordinary people can understand what conduct is prohibited and in a manner that does not encourage arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement. Village of Hoffman Estates v. Flipside, 455 U.S. 489, 102 S.Ct. 1186, 71 L.Ed.2d 362 (1982); Smith v. Goguen, 415 U.S. 566, 94 S.Ct. 1242, 39 L.Ed.2d 605 (1974); Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 104, 92 S.Ct. 2294, 33 L.Ed.2d 222 (1972); Papachristou v. City of Jacksonville, 405 U.S. 156, 92 S.Ct. 839, 31 L.Ed.2d 110 (1972); Connally v. General Construction Co., 269 U.S. 385, 46 S.Ct. 126, 70 L.Ed. 322 (192"

From here:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/461/352

(Cornell has a good law library, don't you think? Smiley)
  

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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #109 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 5:24pm
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Here's one from 1926:

"The constitutional grounds of attack, among others, are that the statutory provisions, if enforced, will deprive plaintiff, its officers, agents and representatives, of their liberty and property without due process of law, in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the federal Constitution; that they contain no ascertainable standard of guilt; that it cannot be determined with any degree of certainty what sum constitutes a current wage in any locality; and that the term 'locality' itself is fatally vague and uncertain. The bill is a long one, and, without further review, it is enough to say that, if the constitutional attack upon the statute be sustained, the averments justify the equitable relief prayed."

From here:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/269/385

If it isn't clear to you yet, the principle is that vague laws are void. Smiley
  

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