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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia (Read 1329 times)
Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #110 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 5:26pm
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It's always a pleasure to discuss things with you, kaz. Kiss Kiss Kiss

Edit: I was thinking, the vagueness doctrine, applied as it must be, which is broadly, without any discrimination, will void huge numbers of laws, and regulations!


What a great idea! Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #111 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 6:19pm
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I liked that opinion from 1926. Here's another quote:


"That the terms of a penal statute creating a new offense must be sufficiently explicit to inform those who are subject to it what conduct on their part will render them liable to its penalties is a well-recognized requirement, consonant alike with ordinary notions of fair play and the settled rules of law; and a statute which either forbids or requires the doing of an act in terms so vague that men of common intelligence must necessarily guess at its meaning and differ as to its application violates the first essential of due process of law. International Harvester Co. v. Kentucky, 234 U. S. 216, 221, 34 S. Ct. 853, 58 L. Ed. 1284; Collins v. Kentucky, 234 U. S. 634, 638, 34 S. Ct. 924, 58 L. Ed. 1510."

I think I'll go read Collins v. Kentucky. Smiley
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #112 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 6:25pm
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This from Collins v. Kentucky:

"It was found that the statute in its reference to 'real value' prescribed no standard of conduct that it was possible to know; that it violated the fundamental principles of justice embraced in the conception of due process of law in compelling men, on peril of indictment, to guess what their goods would have brought under other conditions not ascertainable."

The principle runs deep, and has broad application... Smiley Smiley Smiley

Edit: That was in 1914.
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #113 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 6:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:10am:
That makes it unconstitutional.

Laws that are not comprehensible to the ordinary people they apply to are unconstitutional.
Have you figured it out yet?

Did you notice the presumption of general liberty running through those opinions? Smiley Smiley Smiley
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #114 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 7:20pm
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A good President would veto laws that his wife couldn't understand. If she couldn't understand them, how could she explain them to him?

Such laws deserve a veto, on good Constitutional grounds, with lots of precedent. Smiley

If we only had a good president...
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #115 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 7:24pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:52am:
Um ... where does the Constitution say that?
Are you imagining that if the Constitution does not specifically say that Congress can't do a certain thing (such as enact laws that nobody understands), that Congress has therefore been granted the power to do it?

Edit: That's upside down. If the people wanted to grant Congress the power to enact vague and incomprehensible laws, it would say that in Section 8. "Congress shall have the power to enact vague laws, that not even the courts can understand."

Edit 2: Even worse are bureaucracies writing laws that they have been granted authority (by Congress and SCOTUS) to interpret, and enforce.

Most of the regulations are incomprehensible, and therefore unconstitutional.
  

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kaz
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #116 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 7:24pm:
Are you imagining that if the Constitution does not specifically say that Congress can't do a certain thing (such as enact laws that nobody understands), that Congress has therefore been granted the power to do it?


Your ability to read a post and come up with that it says something that it doesn't say at all in any way is ...



That's why it's Jeffing, not Little BMing.  You are the master ...

  

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Jeff
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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #117 - Jan 5th, 2020 at 8:09am
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2020 at 8:07pm:
Your ability to read a post and come up with that it says something that it doesn't say at all in any way is ...

Well, the Constitution doesn't say specifically that laws enacted by Congress must be intelligible to average people, but SCOTUS quite easily determined that the due process of law guaranteed by the 5th and 14th Amendments does. Smiley

I'm not really surprised that you never ran across the vagueness doctrine, or learned how/why it was established.

Hopefully, you've learned something...

"Our Constitution is designed to maximize individual freedoms within a framework of ordered liberty." SCOTUS

Edit: I guess that Congress, even being chock full of lawyers as it is, never heard of this constitutional rule either... Since it's origins aren't "progressive", it's probable that few law schools teach it.
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #118 - Jan 5th, 2020 at 9:50am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2020 at 8:09am:
Well, the Constitution doesn't say specifically that laws enacted by Congress must be intelligible to average people, but SCOTUS quite easily determined that the due process of law guaranteed by the 5th and 14th Amendments does. Smiley

I'm not really surprised that you never ran across the vagueness doctrine, or learned how/why it was established.

Hopefully, you've learned something...

"Our Constitution is designed to maximize individual freedoms within a framework of ordered liberty." SCOTUS

Edit: I guess that Congress, even being chock full of lawyers as it is, never heard of this constitutional rule either... Since it's origins aren't "progressive", it's probable that few law schools teach it.


You really are stupid.   How do you possibly get that from my saying that vague laws are just ignored?

How does saying they are ignored mean that I am not aware of the vagueness doctrine?
  

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Re: Civil War 2.0 Should Begin In Virginia
Reply #119 - Jan 5th, 2020 at 10:34am
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kaz wrote on Jan 5th, 2020 at 9:50am:
How do you possibly get that from my saying that vague laws are just ignored?
I was replying to this question of yours:

"... where does the Constitution say that? "
  

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